Slovak Interview with Edward Groody

Click here to read original article in Slovak.

A student of psychiatrist and writer Scott Peck,one of the greatest enemies of community is giving advice to others.

“What really builds community is taking risks and being vulnerable in front of others. Answering the question , ‘ How are you?’ truthfully,” says Edward Groody.

Why do most Christian communities function as pseudo-communities ? How can community building be both group prayer and personal healing? What can be our first steps when we feel lonely and deeply yearn for community?

We asked Edward Groody about this too, who has been leading experiential seminars all over the world, including Slovakia, for many years. In them, participants have the opportunity to experience a kind of “communication laboratory”, go through the individual phases of building relationships, and perhaps even experience true community.

The author of the community building method (hereinafter referred to as community building, ed.) is an American psychiatrist and author of the well-known books The Road Untrodden or In Another Rhythm . It was at one of Scott Peck’s lectures that Edward Groody had a visionary experience when he understood that collaborating with this writer and creating communities was his life’s mission.

You worked with Scott Peck, whose books have influenced many. How did he influence you?

I literally became an evangelist for the community. So much so that my close friends forbade me from using the “c word.” ( Laughs.) Thanks to Scott, I realized how much I longed for community and how much it was needed in the world.

Scott was also very strict about telling the truth. I used to be an expert at making a good impression —both my parents came from alcoholic families, where the offspring learned to speak in a way that no one would associate with the problem. When Scott sensed that I was overreacting, he noticed it immediately and made it clear to me. So at twenty-seven, I learned to tell only the plain truth and add nothing. What I took away was integrity. In my relationships with people and with God.

Today we know religious, neighborhood or sports communities, alumni, volunteer or Alcoholics Anonymous communities, but also disadvantaged communities. What did Scott Peck mean by community?

Two things. First, a specific experience that can last thirty seconds or a month. It is a deep connection with one or more people, accompanied by an unusual sense of safety and peace, as well as an extraordinary mutual respect. Some nuns I have worked with have lived in a religious community for twenty years, but they have never experienced it. We all deeply desire such an experience, and we want to be seen and known by others. Instead, we experience only conflict and chaos. This is true across nations and religions.

The second dimension of community is that community is a way of being and living according to certain values: connection with others, authenticity, or unwillingness to settle for superficiality.

So is superficiality an obstacle on the path to community?

No. It’s okay that we don’t experience depth everywhere. When we buy something in a store, we won’t tell the salesperson about our lives. But in family, partner, friendship, and even Christian relationships, we want to go deeper. To look beneath the ordinary mask and be deeply authentic. To answer the question “How are you?” truthfully.

The second meaning, then, is ongoing communion, as we continually move from one of the four stages of community to another. From a Christian perspective, we commit to living in communion with ourselves and with the Spirit and authentically with others: sometimes deeply, sometimes not.

Some would say that community is also experienced with colleagues at work or when gardening with a neighbor. Can community arise by itself or do we have to consciously strive for it?

In some places we may experience a certain level of trust and connection, but true community is about depth. Community can happen by chance, but more often it is created as a result of a crisis. When a flood or a blizzard hits your street and you and your neighbors are working together to clean up the mess, you feel a connection with them, even if you don’t know or hate each other.

In Slovakia today, people from different groups serve together on the border, accommodate people from Ukraine, and form support networks. Is Slovakia experiencing community?

Yes, that’s exactly it. In a crisis, there’s something we call emptying, where we drop our masks and our defense mechanisms. That’s when we put our political views and our expectations aside. We just live in the present moment and that’s when we experience community. I’m from New York, and after the Twin Towers, we experienced an incredible sense of community. It lasted for about ten years.

Ten years?

Yes, because the crisis was so huge and deep. It didn’t matter what religion you were or where you came from. Even the crime rate went down. But all that wears off. When the crisis is over, things usually go back to the way they were before. But we don’t have to wait for a disaster to happen to experience and create community.

We are biologically wired to need others to survive. Why do we need to learn how to build relationships in seminars when it’s not a natural reflex?

This question is more for God than for me. But that’s exactly why people often don’t even try – building deep relationships and communities is hard.

But a key part of Scott Peck’s work is that there are certain communication rules or principles that will lead us to the experience of community. We need to learn these principles and develop certain skills so that we can experience it repeatedly, despite our wounds.

Aren’t communities and relationships much more complex than just learning a few communication rules?

Of course! It is more about certain guidelines, skills or values. Using them is an art, not a mathematical formula. The advantage of the seminar is that it is designed to help you acquire them experientially, gain wisdom and learn to distinguish when and how to use them. And see that thanks to them you can go through different phases of community and also experience true community.

Is it really impossible without a seminar?

You don’t even learn to ride a bike by reading instructions. You need to sit on it and fall a few times. A participant told me the other day: I’ve studied social work for three years, I’ve done mindfulness training, but in these three days I’ve learned more about listening than I ever have before.

The poet Rumi says that our task is not to seek love, but to remove the barriers that prevent us from receiving it. And that is exactly what the process of creating community does. Here we can discover why we don’t feel connected to others. And what we are doing that keeps us so far apart. Many are very surprised when they take off their armor at a seminar and see what really bothers them and what their lives really look like.

You talked about communication principles that will lead us to community. What are they?

The first is to speak in the first person and use so-called I statements  (in English known as I statements , ed. note). This principle is known mainly by psychologists and they think they use it. But during the seminar they find out that it is difficult for them. It means talking only about themselves and being personal and specific.

Could you give an example?

You can say: This pandemic is very difficult. Many have lost their jobs and we should stick together. Or you can say: I am really afraid of losing my job. And I am still worried about the health of my children. Do you feel the difference? It seems simple, but using this principle consistently is very difficult. You start talking in I, you change it to we and so on, it is simply a defense mechanism.

Another key principle is to speak only when you feel prompted, and not to speak when you don’t. Many people realize in seminary, “Wow, I’ve been talking all the time. Maybe I’ll just listen and wait for the Spirit to invite me to say something.” Others say, “I don’t feel like it, but I feel the invitation,” and share something they never planned to. I could go on, but it’s only when you experience them for yourself that you really notice them.

So in a seminar, you lock a random group in a room, give them these communication principles, and the result is a community experience?

Communication principles and guidelines help a group move through the so-called four phases of community: from pseudo-community through chaos and emptiness to the mystery of true community . It is not a linear process, and the group returns to individual phases. It is a kind of weaving of mutual relationships, which has many nuances. I teach those who lead this process in seminars that their task is not to bring the group to the experience of community, but to the phase of emptiness . Also because only the Spirit can make the step from emptiness to true community .

What do you mean by emptiness?

Let us imagine ourselves as a vessel. Unless we work diligently on it internally every day, it is full of expectations, wounds, demands and desires. In the seminar we have communication principles and also time that will help us empty this vessel. We give away the ego so that we can be fully present. In Christian language we would say so that the Holy Spirit can come. We remove barriers and masks and clean the vessel from the inside, so that only “me, the group and God” remain. However, this requires vulnerability and a willingness to take risks from each participant.

The parable says that when an evil spirit finds its old house empty, it takes seven other spirits more wicked than itself and they return. Is emptiness a good thing?

All the great spiritual traditions speak of a form of emptiness that is positive and necessary. In order to listen to someone more than half-heartedly, without thinking about duties or how to improve them, we need to be empty. That’s what daily prayer or meditation is for, but most people don’t do it. Even the group at the beginning of a seminar is not able to listen. They are full of their own things.

How do you know they are incapable of listening?

When someone confides in someone about something personal, others try to correct them. When they learn not to do that anymore, they can go deeper and learn to be silent with them. It’s not just a silence at the level of sound, it’s a deep group silence where everyone is present and fully engaged in what the other is saying.

I once had the experience of a group sitting in silence for an hour after a participant had personally confided in them. The group also needs to learn when it is time to move on. And sometimes they will say: we did not stay with this person and their story long enough. We could also call the process of creating community an experience of depth of presence.

Let’s imagine ourselves as a vessel. Unless we work diligently on it internally every day, it is full of expectations, hurts, demands, and desires.

Many of us feel unheard in our own communities or parishes. Or even though everything looks great on the outside, we don’t really know each other and we don’t talk about difficult things. Is that what you mean by the word pseudo-community?

Most Christian parishes and communities function as pseudo-communities . But we need to realize that pseudo-communities are not bad.

Isn’t it?

It is natural. We need many pseudo-communities in life in order to work, take care of our family, or interact with others in a normal way. There is also a healthy pseudo-community in which there is no pretense, it is just not deep. Talking about the weather can be very pleasant. We cannot be in this deep state all the time, nor will we talk about our deepest things with everyone.

How do we know that this pseudo-community is no longer beneficial to us?

A healthy, thriving community knows when and how to move through all four stages, and has the knowledge and skills to do so. Unfortunately, most churches will remain in pseudo-community forever. When asked how you are, you say you are fine, even if your child is sick or you are angry. Each stage has its positive and negative aspects. When you do not know how to move on  from pseudo-community , you will experience its destructive aspect.

Could the attitude that a good Christian does not get angry, is strong, and does not burden others with his problems also be an obstacle?

Sure, there are some cultural norms that weigh us down. But if you want to simplify, I would also say that Christians have a deeply encoded desire for community.

What if we want to move deeper, but the rest of the community is happy with the way things are?

I consider myself a contemplative Catholic, but when I met Scott Peck, I didn’t go to church. I was frustrated that we weren’t living as a community. I remember him saying to me, “Your parish isn’t functioning as a community because you’re not there.” ( Laughter.) Community, that’s the essence of Christ’s message. Christianity developed so quickly because people sat in a circle and talked like in our seminars. It’s up to me to say: I want more! This is not enough for me!

Will the chaos phase occur then ?

Some people will be put off by this. But you can be honest and use I-statements. Instead of telling them that this community is fake and dysfunctional, you can say, “I feel lonely, I want more. I would like to get to know you better, and I want you to know more about what’s going on in my life. I don’t know if we have the skills to do this together, but someone can help us with this.” When you say it like that, it will be much less of a put-off for them.

What does the chaos phase look like during a seminar?

Many people think that chaos means conflict. But chaos is more about unclear communication, when people don’t really listen to each other. In a pseudo-community, communication is superficial and we focus on how we are all the same. In chaos , we look for where the differences are between us. A common attitude that surfaces at this stage is: “You should do it like me. I know how things should be. I know how this seminar should go, how the moderator should react, what this participant should do.” And he does the exact opposite.

Hearing a lot of teaching, preaching, trying to fix others. Or even projections: I don’t like this one, it reminds me of my father. People find that they are losing control of what is happening, and that can be very uncomfortable.

Have you experienced seminars where things really got heated?

Yes, I have experienced intense anger, but also mild chaos , where people “just” didn’t listen to each other and wanted to heal others. People get really angry because they expected us to work on interesting assignments in small groups. Why aren’t we doing anything? They suggest that everyone stand up, say their favorite color and where they are from. But that doesn’t get you into community. The only way into community is through the void.

How to get there? Tired of the chaos ?

In some groups, maybe. But not so much that this conversation exhausts me and I give up. But we can’t guarantee that every group will reach the void . But if we go deeper and deeper through communication principles, a kind of window opens. And our experience is that if we open a window, the wind comes in.

Building community is a journey into the unknown. I’ve led hundreds of workshops, but in none of them do I know what’s going to happen. Neither do the participants. It’s just us and God, and we’ll see what happens. At some point, the group also realizes: Ah, this is what building community is all about. Am I willing to take off my mask and risk you finding out who I really am?

There is a lot of talk about vulnerability and authenticity. How do you understand them?

Many people think that the best way to help their community is to give advice to others. But what really builds community is taking risks and being vulnerable in front of others. Saying what’s really on your mind at the right time and with the right people. It’s not the only thing, but vulnerability moves things forward. Am I willing to give this gift to this group? Because I don’t know what’s going to happen. Giving this gift to just anyone and waiting doesn’t work either.

It’s also true that when I’m really vulnerable, that’s when I’m authentic. I can tell you stories from my life for hours and you won’t remember anything. Or I can tell you in a few seconds what’s really going on in my life. You may not like me, but you’ll feel: I see him, I know him, I care about him. And you’ll remember it for a long time.

How do you know when the phase of true community has arrived ?

The word that people use a lot is peace, joy, connection with others. It is also a rich, tangible, and healing silence. Another hallmark of true community is a great sense of humor and deep alignment. Not all experiences of community are fairy tales. Sometimes you feel true community and connection, but at the same time you realize that even though you care about these people, you don’t really like them. It may not be as warm and idealistic, but it is also very helpful.

However, in the seminars we do not work with any alternative techniques or energy. One of the most powerful “techniques” is silence. As most spiritual traditions know it, including the Christian one. The experience of community has a strong spiritual dimension and the process of creating community is also a unique group prayer.

Do we need to grow spiritually to create community?

No, you can enter the community building process just as you are. I have done workshops with people from remote areas without education. I had to explain the principles of communication to them in a different language, but they reached the stage of true community faster than other groups. It is more about honesty and deciding whether you want to connect with others.

In Wisconsin, we’ve been doing community workshops in prisons for nine years, helping participants heal past traumas and open up other therapeutic options.

In a pseudo-community, communication is superficial and we focus on how we are all the same. In the chaos, we look for where the differences are between us.

Isn’t it disappointing for participants to have to return to ordinary life after such an experience of deep, accepting relationships?

I would reverse it. This experience shows you that this is common and normal. We’ve just forgotten how to do it. One of the most beautiful things about community building is that it shows you that what you’ve been longing for is possible.

But with community it’s like with marriage. In the early years I was also very naive: Oh, we’ll sit in a circle, follow some principles and a community will happen. It’s much more difficult and requires deeper skills. One of them is also to give up the naivety that it should be easy. The seminar is a strong positive experience that such a thing exists. But to maintain a community in the long term, like all of humanity, we need to learn constantly.

What can be the first step when we feel lonely and long for companionship?

If we want to share our story with someone, let’s be careful to choose someone who is a good listener and invite them to lunch. Let’s tell them that they are someone we would like to confide in. Let’s use the first person and “I” language. And when they want to confide, let’s not try to give them advice. ( Smile.) Let’s listen and not try to say anything.

According to Thomas Merton, our true self is shy. We learn with others how to create a safe environment so that that shy true self can become bold.